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IDS Forum

Re: Snapshot Backup

Posted By: Art Kagel
Date: Thursday, 14 April 2011, at 10:56 a.m.

In Response To: RE: Snapshot Backup (Konikoff, Robert W Mr CIV US USA AMC)

11.50 or 11.70 is the same. External archives have been possible since 7.31
and actively supported (through the addition of log only restores) since
10.00 or 11.10 (I forget).

I mean using ontape or onbar to perform a level 0 archive to disk. We
typically have our clients keep two archives and the logical logs since both
on disk. Prior archives and logical log backups are included in the
filesystem archives taken offsite on removable media and can be retrieved if
a restore to before the 2nd newest archive is required.

The only reason I see for using external archives is that they can be faster
than ontape/onbar for very large servers. This is what Rheinhardt is trying
to describe, using mirror breaking or incremental copies as external
archives.

Art

Art S. Kagel
Advanced DataTools (www.advancedatatools.com)
Blog: http://informix-myview.blogspot.com/

Disclaimer: Please keep in mind that my own opinions are my own opinions and
do not reflect on my employer, Advanced DataTools, the IIUG, nor any other
organization with which I am associated either explicitly, implicitly, or by
inference. Neither do those opinions reflect those of other individuals
affiliated with any entity with which I am affiliated nor those of the
entities themselves.

On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 10:42 AM, Konikoff, Robert W Mr CIV US USA AMC <
rob.konikoff@us.army.mil> wrote:

> Art:
>
>
>
> When you say, ‘… archive to a local disk (or SAN)…’ do you mean like a
> level 0 sent to disk or copying the SAN space that the database resides in,
> in real time?
>
>
>
> Also, the future platform is 11.7 on HPUX 11.iv3
>
>
>
> I originally thought 11.5, but it’s 11.7; does that make a big difference?
>
>
>
> Rob
>
>
>
> *From:* Art Kagel [mailto:art.kagel@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, April 14, 2011 10:09 AM
> *To:* ids@iiug.org
> *Cc:* Konikoff, Robert W Mr CIV US USA AMC
> *Subject:* Re: Snapshot Backup [23416]
>
>
>
> Yes. A couple of additional points:
>
> - The best SAN snapshots keep a local log of changes since the last
> snapshot and just send the changes to the remote copy when you enable the
> snapshot. In this case the snapshots are rather fast, however, there is
> additional bandwidth and processing power of the SAN itself being used up to
> keep track of the changes.
> - The best SAN snapshots can stream changes to the remote in near
> real-time. This makes the snapshot even faster as the SAN just needs to
> send the last sync packets and a 'checkpoint' of sorts to the remote
> triggering a local application of the incremental changes to the previous
> snapshot to bring it up-to-date. The downside is that this method uses lots
> of WAN bandwidth constantly rather than in a burst at snapshot time so it
> may require additional dedicated WAN resources beyond what you need for
> system networking to the remote site.
> - If your SAN does not support either of these "instant" snapshot
> optimizations you will need a VERY FAST link to the remote SAN in order to
> not block the Informix instance for so long that transactions must be
> blocked because the logical and physical log spaces have filled up.
> - In addition to not archiving unallocated space, an Informix archive
> (using ontape or onbar) only copies pages that are actually used for data,
> indexes, and server overhead. Pages within the chunks that are not used are
> not archived. Also not archived are tempdb dbspace chunks since their
> contents are by definition temporary and never need to be restored.
>
> How and why does management think that using Informix archiving software is
> more expensive than using SAN snapshot or SAN replication to archive the
> instance? I've heard the argument about SAN replication versus using
> HDR/MACH11 replication, but have not heard a strong argument versus
> archives.
>
> At most sites our clients archive to a local disk (or SAN) and then use
> rcp/scp to move the archive file(s) to a remote system for safety
> (alternatively you could write the archive to a filesystem that the SAN is
> replicating to a remote twin). Finally the archive file(s) are picked up on
> both the local and remote systems in the normal filesystem archiving
> overnight to be send offsite. This is safe and efficient, faster than tape,
> uses less storage on the remote system than snapshots, and it is all done
> without disturbing the operations of the server at all.
>
> Art
>
> Art S. Kagel
> Advanced DataTools (www.advancedatatools.com)
> Blog: http://informix-myview.blogspot.com/
>
> Disclaimer: Please keep in mind that my own opinions are my own opinions
> and do not reflect on my employer, Advanced DataTools, the IIUG, nor any
> other organization with which I am associated either explicitly, implicitly,
> or by inference. Neither do those opinions reflect those of other
> individuals affiliated with any entity with which I am affiliated nor those
> of the entities themselves.
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 9:42 AM, Konikoff, R.... <rob.konikoff@us.army.mil>
> wrote:
>
> We are wrestling with SAN level backup strategies now.
>
> Our next platform:
> HP-UX 11.iv3
> IDS 11.5
>
> I want transaction level strategy for offsite disaster recovery, but
> 'management' thinks it costs too much. They are leaning towards SAN copies.
>
> Check me out here... To synthesize this conversation then on SAN level
> archiving:
>
> Informix calls SAN level archives an external archive. To do this, you have
> to checkpoint the Informix instance and block new transactions from being
> written to disk while the SAN copy is being written. Then once the copy is
> complete, release the block. This is done as follows:
>
> 1. onmode -c block
>
> 2. snapshot
>
> 3. onmode -c unblock
>
> In this case, the snapshot can be 3rd party software. INFORMIX doesn't do
> 'snapshots' since they take more space than a level 0 archive. Clones will
> copy all of the database's chunks, and even the array spaces that are not
> yet allocated to the instance. Vendor products that do database snapshots
> may be more efficient in taking only the used space, with minimal overhead,
> but that requires product evaluation to determine the overhead and copy
> parameters.
>
> Am I tracking?
>
> Thanks...
>
> Rob
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ids-bounces@iiug.org [mailto:ids-bounces@iiug.org] On Behalf Of
> Habichtsberg, Reinhard
> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 3:55 AM
> To: ids@iiug.org
> Subject: Re: Snapshot Backup [23415]
>
> What you are talking about is what I would call a clone. A snapshot in
> contrast taken with the means of some of the storage distributors takes
> only the space of the administrative overhead. That is minimal. Simply
> spoken the snapshot points to the same blocks as the original. Updates
> of the original will be only reflected there because the snap blocks
> will not be overwritten but new blocks and pointers will be created.
> Only the differences between original and snapshot will consume space.
>
> The snapshot can be used as external backup as said by the foreposters.
>
> I have to confess that I have no practical knowledge with that spaceless
> snapshots. We will implement a new SAN soon so I had to look into some
> features of storage technology of today.
>
> Reinhard.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ids-bounces@iiug.org [mailto:ids-bounces@iiug.org] On Behalf Of
> John
> > Miller iii
> > Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 8:52 AM
> > To: ids@iiug.org
> > Subject: Re: Snapshot Backup [23414]
> >
> > Snapshot backup generally consume allot more space than an Informix
> > Level 0 backup. This is because Informix understand what is free space
> > both inside and outside of tables and does not back this up. That
> being
> > said there are many fancy disk based snap/flash technologies which
> > can do some pretty impressive work.
> >
> > Yes you can apply logical logs after executing a snapshot backup
> > (or as Informix calls it an External Backup)
> >
> > John F. Miller III
> > STSM, Embedability Architect
> > miller3@us.ibm.com
> > 503-578-5645
> > IBM Informix Dynamic Server (IDS)
> >
> > ids-bounces@iiug.org wrote on 04/13/2011 03:45:21 PM:
> >
> > > From:
> > >
> > > "SHAHZAD SALAM KASI" <skasi@i2cinc.com>
> > >
> > > To:
> > >
> > > ids@iiug.org
> > >
> > > Date:
> > >
> > > 04/13/2011 03:46 PM
> > >
> > > Subject:
> > >
> > > Re: Snapshot Backup [23411]
> > >
> > > Sent by:
> > >
> > > ids-bounces@iiug.org
> > >
> > > Thanks for the response.
> > >
> > > Is Snapshot backup consumes less space than Level-0 backup ?
> > > Also, can we apply logs after re-storing using Snapshot backup ?
> > >
> > > What is the command to take snapshot backup ?
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> ************************************************************************
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> >
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> > >
> >
> >
> >
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>
> ****************************************************************************
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